全知识专访：卜正民专访（上篇）——我与半个世纪前的中国

全知识专访

专家访谈、深度阅读、纵深历史

卜正民 / 2019

本期采访嘉宾：

卜正民，历任多伦多大学、斯坦福大学、英属哥伦亚大学历史系教授，兼圣约翰学院院长。1974年，他作为交换生来到中国。李约瑟则在1977年安排他参与《中国的科学与文明》第七分册的编写，这一册主要是对比中国发展与西方资本主义兴起，这对卜正民的学术道路或多或少有些影响，在《为权力而祈祷：佛教与晚明中国士绅社会的形成》（或译为“觊觎权力”，江苏人民，2005年11月）、与格力高利·布鲁编的《中国与历史资本主义：汉学知识的系谱学》（新星出版社，2005年5月）等都体现了这一点。2007年7月赴牛津大学历史系任教。著有《觊觎权力：佛教与晚期明士绅社会的形成》、《纵乐的困惑：明代的商业与文化》、《明清历史的地理资料》等书，编有《亚细亚生产方式在中国》、《中国公民社会》、《中国与历史资本主义》、《鸦片政权》、《民族行为：亚洲精英与民族身份认同》等著作。后现代史学认为历史只是后人构建的，历史的书写总会以特殊的意识形态和权力话语为导向的。因此后现代史学认为是历史学家发现并写作故事，个人价值、想像和感情无法避免，后现代史学写作也就和小说创作并无二致，《纵乐的困惑》也不例外，它的故事性极强，写得生动而有趣，这恰恰是后现代史学的中心特征之一。

卜正民老师您好！感谢您在百忙之中接受我们的专访。我们的第一个问题比较轻松，想与您聊一聊您中文名字“卜正民”背后的小故事。您也已研究中国历史近半个世纪之久，今天再回头看五十年前所做的选择（研究中国历史），有什么特别的感触想与您的读者分享吗？

卜正民：第一个问题的答案很复杂。事实上，我的中文名来自我的一年级中文班。因为我的姓是Brook，她为我选择了“卜”作为中文姓氏。因为“卜”和Brook的发音比较相近。但是“正民”这个名字其实来源于一个误会。当时我刚刚开始学习中文，我有一个好朋友名叫Jeremy Paltiel，他是一位研究中国的政治学家，现在在卡尔顿大学教学。Timothy与中文里的“天民”发音相近。Jeremy的发音则与“正民”很接近。所以我应该是“卜天民”，而他应该叫“包正民”。但因为我们俩在同一门课上，老师将我们的名字搞混了，于是我就变成了“卜正民”，他就变成了“包天民”。既然已经用了“卜正民”这个名字，我也不可能再用回“卜天民”了。

The answer to the first question is a very complicated. In fact, I got my Chinese name in my first year Chinese class. Because my surname is Brook, my teacher, who was from Taiwan, chose the name 卜. Bu and Brook are fairly close. But Zhengmin is a mistake. When I started first year Chinese, I had a friend, Jeremy Paltiel, who became a China political scientist and taught at Carleton University. We were in first Chinese together. His name was Jeremy Paltiel, so he was Bao and I was Bu. But the teacher got our names mixed up. So he was called Tianming—she thought he was Timothy—and I was called Zhengming, because she thought I was Jeremy: Jeremy Brook and Tim Paltiel. She got our names confused and never figured out this. We later realized that this was a mistake. I should have been Bu Tianming, and he should have been Bao Zhengming. But after we got our names, they became our names. We didn't figure this out for quite a while, and then we did. Because 我已经是卜正民I was not going to be called Bu Tianming. I was going to stick with 卜正民.

包天民教授（Jeremy Paltiel）

您觉得这样也没什么大问题是吗？

卜正民：因为在某种意义上，名字是完全随意的。你可以有各种各样的称呼。这就是我的中文老师对我的称呼。所以我想，好吧，这就是我的中文名字了。Jeremy是一位十分高产的学者，他一直在用“包天民”这个名字，而我也一直是“卜正民”。

Because in a sense, a name is entirely arbitrary. You can be called anything. So that is what my Chinese teacher called me. So I thought, okay, that is my Chinese name now.

I told us to keep using it. And Jeremy is a prolific scholar who publishes. He is still Bao Tianming, and I am still Bu Zhengmin.

你们两人还保持着联系吗？

卜正民：是的，我们偶尔还会见面。（我们的中文名字）也算是我学习中文的一个很有趣的开始。当你是一个语言班一年级的学生的时候，你不知道老师说的是否是事实，你会全然相信老师说的话。直到后来，你才意识到，哦，这里有些有趣的东西。我第一次上中文课是在1972年的夏天，也就是48年前。因缘际会，我对亚洲哲学，尤其是佛教哲学产生了兴趣。因此，当我在多伦多大学的时候，我想上一门关于日本佛教的课程。但是学校没有开设日本佛教的相关课程，只有一门关于中国佛教的课程，所以我就选修了这门课。这门课的老师是Leonard Priestley，他有很强的人格魅力。在你的一生中，你会遇到一些良师，他们能真正地与你产生共鸣，并且能塑造你看待世界的方式。这位教授中国佛教课程的老师非常有魅力，给我留下了深刻的印象，所以我选修了更多由他教授的课程。他是中国史研究的专家，因为他，我也逐渐对中国产生了兴趣。同时，我也逐渐意识到，如果不知道中文的原意，我就无法真正了解中文佛教哲学的概念。所以我觉得我需要学习中文。于是在1971年的秋天，我开始上中文课，但中文真的很难。因为我当时选修了很多其他的课程，我不得不放弃这门中文课。

Yes, we still see each other occasionally. It is kind of an amusing beginning to our learning Chinese. Of course, when you are a first-year language student, you don't know. If the teacher says that something is the case, then you believe the teacher. Only later do you realize, oh, there is something funny here. I took my first Chinese language course in the summer of 1972, 48 years ago. I had become interested in Asian philosophy, particularly Buddhist philosophy, through a series of chance meetings and friendships. As a result, I thought I would like to take a course on this while I was at University of Toronto. I wanted to take a course ideally on Japanese Buddhism, but there was no course at that time on Japanese Buddhism. There was only a course on Chinese Buddhism. So I took the course in Chinese Buddhism. The teacher, Leonard Priestley, was one of those wonderfully charismatic teachers. You have a few of them in your life, a teacher who really connects with you and shapes the way you look at the world. I was so impressed with him that I decided to take more of his courses, and ended up doing so. He was a specialist in Chinese history, and I followed his interest, becoming interested in China because this professor was. I gradually realized that I couldn't understand Buddhist philosophical concepts if I didn't know the originals in Chinese. You can't really get inside a philosophy if you don't know the language in which it is written. So I thought I'll try Chinese. I first registered for a course in the fall of 1971, but it was too hard. I had too many other courses, so I dropped the course.

多伦多大学三一学院

我记得那时候你的专业是英语文学？

卜正民：是的。第二年夏天，多伦多大学开设了夏季汉语强化课程。所以我决定，好吧，我要选这门课。对于语言学习来说，集中学习更加高效。当时的我没有设想未来的计划，只是对中文充满好奇。其实，当我继续学习更多有关中国的课程时，多伦多大学东亚学系的导师告诉我，“你要知道，在（当时的）中国没有合适的工作。这是一种学起来没什么用的语言。”但这对我来说无所谓，我学习中文并不是为了找工作。

The following summer, the University of Toronto offered a summer intensive Chinese language course, so I decided to try again and take that course. It was easier to learn when you were learning intensively rather than taking it as one course among five different courses. So that's how I started. I had no vision for the future; I was just curious: this was pure intellectual curiosity. I then went on and took more China courses, though the undergraduate advisor in the East Asian Studies department at Toronto told me, "You know, there are no jobs in China. This is a rather useless language to learn." I didn't care. I was interested. It did not matter to me. I wasn't looking for a career.

所以，更多还是为了您的兴趣。

卜正民：是的。这只是出于我对于新知识的兴趣。我所了解的中国还是1972年的中国，那时的中国还处在文化大革命当中。随后我得到了当交换生的机会，1974年，我作为留学生前往中国学习了两年。这个个人经历将我与中国紧密地联系在了一起，我对这个国家产生了更多的情感。从那以后，我就一直在研究中国。

Exactly. It was just intellectual interest. And remember, the China I knew was China in 1972, still in the Cultural Revolution. There was no possibility of a career. My fortunes changed two years later when I had the opportunity to visit as an exchange student. So I became a liuxuesheng in 1974 and lived in China for two years. That personal experience was what bonded me to China in some way, and I've been thinking about China ever since.

所以，可以理解为，因为中文课和那位教授中国佛教的优秀老师，以及随后去中国学习的交换项目，您和中国建立了联系。就这样，您开始了中国研究的学术生涯。后来，您申请了哈佛的博士项目。

卜正民：在我出发前往北京之前，我已经申请了哈佛大学，随后我得到了交换生项目的机会。于是我申请了延期一年入学，然后去北京大学学习了一年。但在那一年的年底，我感觉到一年的学习时间远远不够，我还需要再待一年，于是我请求哈佛允许我再延期一年，他们同意了。于是我又去上海，在复旦大学学习了一年。结束了两年的中国生活后，我前往哈佛大学攻读硕士学位。在当时的亚洲历史研究项目中，只有很少学生曾经去过中国。因为我是加拿大人，所以我可以去中国学习。但对于美国人来讲，他们是不可能去中国的。

Before I went to Beijing, I applied to graduate school at Harvard University. I was accepted, and asked for a one-year deferment. At that time I was intending only to go to China for 1 year. At the end of that first year, while I was still at Peking University, I didn't feel that I yet understood enough. I felt I needed to stay for a second year. So I asked Harvard to give me another extension, and they said fine, you can have another extension. This meant that I could go to Shanghai, where I spent a year at Fudan University. Then, after 2 years in China, I went to graduate school. I was lucky. In those days, very few students entered Asian history programs with experience in China. I did simply because I was Canadian. Americans couldn't go.

是的，我记得那时候中美还没有建立外交关系。

卜正民：一直到1979年中美才确立外交关系。中国和加拿大是在1971年建立的外交关系。留学生交换项目在1973年开设，我是在1974年参加的这个项目。因此，哈佛大学允许我待在中国，因为他们知道我在学习中文，同时也在体验中国文化。在中国的经历会帮助我成为一个更优秀的学生。和我同一批前往中国的留学生一共三人，一个来自澳大利亚，一个来自新西兰，我则来自加拿大。1976年，我们三个人一起去哈佛攻读硕士学位。

Not until 1979 did China and the United established diplomatic relations, whereas Canada reestablished ties in 1971. A student exchange program was started in 1973, and I went in 1974. Accordingly, Harvard was content for me to stay in China as long as I wanted, because they understood that I was learning Chinese and was experiencing Chinese culture first hand. This would make me a better student. The longer I stayed in China, maybe, the better a student I could hope to be. In fact, there were three of us, three liuxuesheng in China, one from Australia, one from New Zealand, and one from Canada, who all went to Harvard in 1976 as graduate students.

您还记得（在中国的时候）班级里有多少人吗？

卜正民：在复旦，我记得一共有14个外国学生。在北大的时候，我不记得确切的数字了，大概有五六十人，其中有欧洲人、阿尔巴尼亚人，还有柬埔寨人。在北京的时侯，因为外国学生很多，周围都是外国人，很难有机会接触到中国当地人，也很难真正融入当地的文化。所以我决定去复旦，因为复旦当时只有12-14个外国学生，你会有更多的机会去了解上海本地人。当然，上海也是一个更好的地方。上海人更加友善，而北京人，你懂的，他们总是更关心政治。

In Fudan, there were around 14 waiguo xuesheng. At Peking University, I don't remember how many students there were, maybe 50 to 60 students, Europeans and Albanians, plus a whole range of Asians, including Cambodians. There were so many foreign students in Beijing that this was one of the reasons I went to Shanghai. I felt that I was surrounded by other foreigners, too many, to the point that we became a kind of a group that couldn't really relate personally to our environment. So I decided I wanted to go to Fudan, mainly because there were only 12 to 14 students. You can get to know people in Shanghai more easily than in Beijing. Also, Shanghai was a much nicer place to be. Shanghainese were much friendlier. Beijing people, you know, are always anxious about politics.

那人们是否会盯着您看？毕竟您是外国人，与中国人的外貌差别很大。

卜正民：这就是我在中国那两年的经历。因为我是外国人，如果我站在街角，会有200个人盯着我看，因为他们以前从没见过西方人。但作为一个学生，你会学会如何应对这个问题：你穿着中国人的服装，然后看起来是要去某个地方。所以你不只是像个游客一样站在那里，而是表现出你要去某个地方。如果你看起来应该在这里，融入到他们当中成为其中的一员，人们就会忽视你。只有当你看起来是个局外人的时候，他们才会变得好奇。那是一个有趣的经历，它塑造了我对整个中国的看法。

That was my experience for 2 years in China. I was a foreigner. If I stood on a street corner, I could get a crowd of 200 people just staring at me because they'd never seen a westerner before. But as a student, you learned how to negotiate that: you dressed in Chinese clothes, and you looked like you had a purpose. You didn't just stand around like a tourist. You had a purpose, you were going somewhere. If it seemed that you should be there, people ignored you. It's only if you seemed that you were an outsider that they became curious. IUt was an interesting experience. It shaped my entire view of China.

所以，因为这些特别的经历，您会用批判的眼光看待和理解中国。

卜正民：同时带有一种个人的同情是最关键的。因为当你在一个外国文化中，你适应了那个文化，你就会培养出一种同理心。你明白人们为什么说他们所说的话，为什么他们做他们所做的事，这就产生了理解。如果你没有生活在这种文化之中，你就很难理解。

It was critical also to have a kind of personal sympathy. When you are in a foreign culture, you adapt to that culture, and so you develop a sympathy. You understand why people say the things they do, why they do the things they do, and that creates understanding. It's very hard to have that understanding if you don't live in another culture.

住在那里与人交谈，与真实的人交谈，而不是仅仅基于书本上的知识去理解这个国家。

卜正民：是的，其实研究中国是一个偶然的选择，但是中国的确是一个很有趣的课题。我也对中国保持着持续的兴趣。这实际上就联系到你的另一个问题：我形容自己“首先是作家，然后是历史学家。”我想这是因为我本可以学任何课题，但最后，我选择学习中国历史。其实我也可以研究日本、阿富汗或韩国。学习中国历史并不是我的使命。只是中国，作为一个历史文化知识和文学的载体，于我而言是一个令人着迷的课题，所以我很高兴去进行研究。我得说我首先是一个作家，其次是历史学家，最后才是一个中国研究专家。我喜欢写作。我喜欢交流带来的创造性。所以研究历史是我的一份工作，为我自己提供写作的素材。历史是我写作的一种资源。作为一个历史学家，中国相关的内容是我的研究资料，但我也对英国历史感兴趣。我对欧洲历史、加拿大历史、日本历史都很感兴趣。我还在日本住过两年。所以我也试着利用这些不同的文化去进行写作。也因此，我觉得我先是一个作家，然后是一个历史学家，最后才是一个中国历史学家。

The fact that I ended up studying China was a random choice. China proved to be an interesting subject, and so I continue to be interested in China. Actually, the random nature of my interest goes to the heart of your last question. I describe myself as a writer first and historian second. I think I could have studied anything. I ended up studying China, but I could just as easily have studied Japan or Afghanistan or Korea. I was not somehow fulfilling my destiny to study China. It's just that China, as a cultural zone, as a history, as a body of knowledge and literature, was a fascinating subject to study, and so studying it pleased me. If I think of myself as a writer first and a historian second, I would say I'm a China specialist third. I like writing. I like the creativity of communication. History is the work I do: it gives me the material that I write about. History is a kind of resource for my writing, and as a historian, China is the resource that I draw on more than any other, but I'm also interested in English History, and European history, and Canadian history, and also Japanese history. I spent two years living in Japan. So I try and draw on all of these different cultures that I’ve experienced. So I'm a China historian third, a historian second, and a writer first.

这其实联系到我们准备的第二个问题：从《维米尔的帽子》到《塞尔登先生的中国地图》再到您最新的著作《大国》，地图、绘画作品还有各种插图都被用来将一段段的历史串连在一起，从而为读者提供了生动的历史场景。是否可以和我们分享一下为什么您选择通过地图、绘画作品和插图来讲述这些故事？

《维米尔的帽子》

卜正民：你提到的这些书都是我面向更广的读者群创作的，而不是面向中国研究的专家。我不需要向一个中国专家解释为什么有些东西很有趣，但对普通读者来说他们很难理解。首先，让普通读者了解过去是非常困难的。理解过去就是理解它与现在的不同，我认为大多数读者并不能完全理解这一点。同时，中国又是一个理解起来非常困难的课题，因为大多数读者对中国一无所知。使用插图其实是吸引他们的一种方式。你为他们打开这扇门，他们就可以进入你的主题。在《大国》这本书里，我从描绘忽必烈汗外出打猎的画开始，让读者看着这幅画、思考这幅画，认识忽必烈汗，然后去思考这些人是谁？他们在做什么?对于那些完全不了解中国的读者来说，这是一种写作方式。我不会花很多时间来解释一幅画，但我会用这些艺术作品作为一个入口，它为普通读者提供了一种途径。而且，我很喜欢用历史地图，尤其在《大国》中。因为解读一幅来自另一个世纪的地图，你必须明白那些绘制和购买地图的人的想法，那个时期的地图展现了他们看待世界的方式。所以如果我们看一幅17世纪的地图，我们就能开始理解17世纪的人是如何看待世界的。我认为这是对外国读者而言，非常有用的一种方式，可以为他们开辟一条进入这个领域的道路。

The books that you cite are all books that I've written for a larger audience, not for China specialists. I don't need to explain to a China specialist why something about China is interesting. But to an ordinary reader, China is very difficult for them to enter; well, in two ways. First, it's very hard for them to enter the past. Understanding the past requires understanding that it's different from the present, and I think most readers don't quite recognize that. If you want them to see the difference with the past, then understanding China is a very difficult thing for them. Secondly, they don't know anything about China. Using illustrations is a way of luring them in. You open the door for them so that they can come into your subject. In Great State, I start with the painting of Khubilai Khan out hunting. I invite my readers to look at the painting, to think about the painting, to recognize all that Khubilai Khan and the other people in the painting are doing. It is way to enable somebody who doesn't know anything about China to begin to understand, to enter the culture of that place and time. I don't spend a lot of time explaining art. I use art as an entryway for ordinary readers. I also like to use historical maps, which I do in Great State particularly. Deciphering a map from another century helps you to enter the mind of the people who drew the map and bought the map. The map invites us to see how they saw the world. If we look at a 17th-century map, we can begin to understand how someone in the 17th century thought about the world. And I think that's a useful way to find a path into the subject for foreign readers.

是的，就像您在《维米尔的帽子》中所做的那样。而且不得不说，这本书在中国非常畅销。

卜正民：在《维米尔的帽子》中，我其实遇到了一些行文结构上的问题。我经常以一幅画开始一个章节，然后再讲述一个故事。《维米尔的帽子》的大部分章节都有两个开头：从绘画开始，然后再讲述故事，随后你就会知道这一章节中我真正想表达什么。但我发现，很多读者并不在意这一点。他们只是喜欢看图画，也喜欢听故事。

In Vermeer's Hat, I had a bit of a structural problem. I often started a chapter with a painting, and then I told a story. Most of my chapters in that book have two beginnings: each starts with the painting, and then it turns to a story that reveals what I'm talking about. But readers don't seem to mind that. Readers like images and they like stories.

（在《维米尔的帽子》中，）您选择用约翰内斯·维米尔的八幅画来讲述17世纪全球贸易的历史。在荷兰诞生了许多著名的画家，为什么选择维米尔的画作作为研究资料？与同时期的其他画家相比，维米尔有哪些特别之处呢？

卜正民：我可以从两个方面来回答这个问题。一是我需要一个荷兰画家，因为荷兰东印度公司是17世纪中国的主要贸易伙伴。另一是，我选择维米尔只是出于个人喜好。70年代初，我还是学生的时候就看过维米尔的画。事实上，我的一个朋友在1972年给我买了一本维米尔的画集，我现在还留着。他有把赠书的日期写在书上。我一直都很喜欢维米尔。这里的偶然性在于，当时的我在为多伦多大学一年级的学生上课，我试图让他们想象17世纪的世界是什么样子的，所以我给了他们一组17世纪的画作，这其中包括维米尔的作品和伦勃朗的作品。我记得有一幅画是维米尔的《士兵与微笑的少女》，画中的士兵戴着海狸皮帽，这幅画也成为我这本书的封面。我记得当时我把这幅画投影到屏幕上给学生看。当我看这幅画的时候，我意识到，这幅画让我能够通过海狸皮帽把欧洲、加拿大、中国与世界历史联系在一起。因为海狸皮帽来自加拿大。

I can answer that in two ways. One way is that I needed it to be a Dutch painter because of the Dutch East India Company. The Dutch East India Company was the major trading partner with China in the 17th century, so it served my purpose for me to feature a Dutch painter. Secondly, I chose Vermeer because of a personal liking. I had seen Vermeer’s paintings as a student in the early 70s. In fact, a friend of mine bought me a book of Vermeer paintings in 1972, and I still have it. I recall the date because he wrote it in the book. I've always liked Vermeer. Again, though, there was an accidental quality to this choice. That accident happened in a first-year course I was teaching. I wanted to get my students to imagine what the world look like in the 17th century. To do this, I gave them a series of 17th century paintings to view. Some were by Vermeer, some were by Rembrandt. I still remember giving the lecture at the University of Toronto at which I showed my students Vermeer's painting of The Officer and the Laughing Girl, which is on the cover of the book. I remember looking at that painting on the screen, and realizing this is the painting could allow me to tie Europe, Canada and China together into world history, and all because of the beaver hat, which came from Canada.

维米尔 Johannes Vermeer《士兵与微笑的少女》（Officer and Laughing Girl）

英文版《维米尔的帽子》的封面

这幅画让我意识到海狸皮帽是一个有趣的点。然后当我开始看维米尔的其他画作时，我发现他是一位非常细心的画家。他一生的大部分时间都在代尔夫特度过，所以他的世界很小，但这不妨碍他去看外面的世界，他总是探索新的地方。所有我想要阐述的内容，都可以找到一幅维米尔的画作与之对应。其实这本书本来不是关于维米尔的，我只是想用维米尔的一幅画。但随着我对这一幅画的研究逐渐深入，我意识到，我应该用尽可能多的维米尔的画作来写这本书。事实上，我在后面的章节中使用了另外两位艺术家的作品，因为我需要讲其他的故事，但大多数章节里，我使用的是维米尔的画作。而且我认为大部分西方读者都喜欢维米尔，他是一个非常受欢迎的画家，非常有名。其实我本可以使用伦勃朗，他的名气比维米尔稍大一点。但在某种程度上，伦勃朗太过戏剧化。他总是在讲宏大的叙事，而维米尔却是一个安静的画家，这对我来说更友好。因为我想讲述我自己的故事，我不想讲维米尔的故事。但对于伦勃朗的作品，你必须讲述伦勃朗的故事。

It was that one painting that led me to think of the idea of writing this book. Once I started to look at other Vermeer paintings, I found the same connectivity with elsewhere. Vermeer was a very careful painter, a very attentive painter. He spent most of his life in Delft, he lived in a very small world, but he was always looking out of his world. He was always looking toward new places. It seemed that for any connection I wanted to illustrate, there was a Vermeer painting that did that. I didn’t have the idea that the book would be about Vermeer. I was just going to use that one painting, but as I thought about that one painting, I looked at his other paintings and realized: no, I should use as many of Vermeer's paintings as I can, though in fact, I ended up using two other artists in the later chapters when there were other stories I needed to tell; but mostly, I use Vermeer's paintings. Another reason to use his paintings is that most western readers like Vermeer. He's a very popular painter, very well-known. I could have used a different famous painter, like Rembrandt, who currently has a slightly bigger reputation than Vermeer. To some extent, though, I find Rembrandt too dramatic. He's always telling big stories, where Vermeer is a quiet painter and that for me was better. I wanted to tell my own stories. I didn't want to tell Vermeer's stories. With Rembrandt, you sort of have to tell Rembrandt's stories.

在《维米尔的帽子》中，您有提到中国同时期的画家董其昌，并认为“两者的共性太过离奇，无法视而不见”。这个观点十分有趣，您可否详细说明一下呢？正如您之前所说的，《维米尔的帽子》是一本为西方读者所写的书。但董其昌却是一个对于西方读者来讲非常陌生的名字，也许只有中文世界的读者听说过他的名字。您使用董其昌这个人物的目的是什么呢？

卜正民：如果我要写一本类似于《维米尔的帽子》的书，我应该会使用董其昌的画作，而不是维米尔的画，因为对于中国读者来讲，董其昌的名字更加熟悉。所以我想尝试从我的读者们熟悉的东西开始。董其昌的奇特之处在于，正如维米尔接触了外面的世界一样，董其昌也接触了外面的世界。大多数中国读者没有意识到董其昌接触过欧洲的版画，实际上，他的一些艺术风格受到了欧洲版画的影响。董其昌出生在上海，一直生活在上海。上海与世界的交往程度甚至超过了北京。我可以以董其昌和上海作为开始，但我最终使用了维米尔和他所生活的代尔夫特。实际上，我可以从任一方向进行写作，而最终做决定的是我所要面对的读者。对于欧洲读者，他们不知道董其昌是谁。对于中国画，他们也很难理解。有趣的是，当时的上海正逐渐与全球贸易接轨，就像代尔夫特与全球贸易接轨一样。董其昌知道外面的世界。就他们的社会地位而言，董其昌和维米尔是完全不同的人。维米尔是一个不知名的、不重要的人，来自一个相当普通的背景。董其昌是一位大官，非常有名。但他们的作品都在各自的文化里被铭记。今天的西方人知道维米尔，今天的中国人知道董其昌。所以如果我是从中国人的角度来写，我会从董其昌开始。虽然董其昌的作品与维米尔完全不同，但这是为了找到一个切入点，让你的读者能快速进入这本书中所描绘的世界。

If I were going to write another book in the style of Vermeer's Hat for Chinese readers, I would consider using a painting by Dong Qichang, not by Vermeer, because Chinese people can more readily recognize Dong's name. What I'd want to do is start with something that's familiar to my readers. The curious thing about Dong Qichang is that, just as Vermeer was exposed to the outside world, so was Dong Qichang. Most Chinese readers don't realize that he looked at European prints, and that some of his artistic design was influenced by European prints. So it would be very easy to use Dong Qichang. He was born in Shanghai, and Shanghai was exposed to the world more than, say, Beijing, was to other places. I could have started in Shanghai with Dong Qichang, but instead I started Vermeer’s Hat in Delft with Vermeer. Still, I could have done it from either direction, and then go back in and have their two stories meet. I couldn't do this for a Western audience, however, because they don't know who Dong Qichang is. Also, Westerners find Chinese painting, well, difficult to understand. It's just too pretty. But Shanghai would have been an interesting place to start, because it was becoming connected to global trade, just as Delft was being connected to global trade. Dong Qichang was aware of the outside world. In terms of their social position, Dong and Vermeer were completely different people. Vermeer was an unknown, unimportant person from a modest background, whereas Dong Qichang was a daguan and very famous. What both of them have in common is that their paintings are well remembered in the two cultures. Westerners today know Vermeer, and Chinese today know Dong Qichang. So if I'd been writing from a Chinese perspective, I would have started with Dong Qichang, even though their art work is completely different. Again, it's a matter of finding a point of entry to invite your readers into the book.

《松江邦彦画像》之董其昌朝服像

您需要做出妥协。有时候您只需要吸引特定的读者群体。

卜正民：在提到董其昌的那一章里我有写明这个观点。我告诉读者们我可以从董其昌开始，而不是维米尔。我从维米尔开始讲起是为了让他们明白他们的观点并不是唯一的，我想让他们思考这个问题。而我最终没有写关于董其昌的一章，则是因为我认为他们不会觉得有趣。但我还是想让他们思考一下这种可能性。

I put the reference to Dong Qichang in the opening chapter just so that Western readers would realize that their perspective is not the only possible perspective. I tell them I could have started with Dong Qichang instead of Vermeer, even though I did start with Vermeer, just so that they might understand that their perspective is not the only perspective. It was something for them to think about. I didn't write a chapter about Dong Qichang because I think they wouldn't have found that interesting. I just wanted them to think about the possibility.